xAP Talk Transcript 2006 11 21
21/11/2006 14:46:58 ‹KevinH› I'll be around later all being well........
21/11/2006 14:59:19 * James joins My room
21/11/2006 15:06:18 * kevint joins My room
21/11/2006 15:06:53 ‹kevint› evening all
21/11/2006 15:07:08 ‹kevint› the usual culprits then ;)
21/11/2006 15:07:59 ‹James› hi
21/11/2006 15:08:37 ‹James› I've got a new intranet ocx here that has a feature you'll like ;-)
21/11/2006 15:08:49 ‹kevint› oh yes?
21/11/2006 15:09:21 ‹James› group support
21/11/2006 15:10:13 ‹kevint› oooh !
21/11/2006 15:10:18 ‹kevint› thanks
21/11/2006 15:10:27 ‹James› only trouble is old intranet apps will need to be configurable to change the group. If it's not set it will default to 'Home'
21/11/2006 15:10:27 ‹kevint› in anticipation.....
21/11/2006 15:11:01 ‹kevint› backwards compatible then..
21/11/2006 15:11:15 ‹James› well sort of!
21/11/2006 15:12:17 ‹James› it works quite well. If groups are in use then you get a + symbol on the far right. clicking on it shows a page with a list of the groups and which app is where
21/11/2006 15:12:43 ‹James› the top bar of an app where groups are set will only show apps from that group
21/11/2006 15:14:38 ‹kevint› I think I was only planning 2 groups, Public and System
21/11/2006 15:15:18 ‹James› well, you can have as many as you like. but curently an app can only belong to one group
21/11/2006 15:15:49 ‹kevint› that fits my intentions I think
21/11/2006 15:16:13 ‹James› I'll await the 'could it...' email
21/11/2006 15:16:40 ‹kevint› I think what you have done was the could it ;)
21/11/2006 15:17:16 ‹kevint› If pushed I suppose that i would ask that
21/11/2006 15:17:53 ‹kevint› the next version of launcher was configurable to ignore other than the home group completely
21/11/2006 15:18:41 ‹kevint› I was away this weekend but I have managed a little more on my new quasar app
21/11/2006 15:18:45 ‹James› the laucher will need groups support added
21/11/2006 15:19:31 ‹kevint› I now have it logging one minute spot values to a daily plain text file
21/11/2006 15:20:28 ‹James› how about options such as overlaying yesterday's graph over todays to see the difference
21/11/2006 15:20:42 ‹James› not that i would use it ;-)
21/11/2006 15:21:17 ‹kevint› well currently it has only the current graph, ie the last 30 minutes
21/11/2006 15:21:28 ‹kevint› for each endpoint
21/11/2006 15:21:45 ‹James› i'm jsut trying to make all todo lits big ;-)
21/11/2006 15:22:05 ‹kevint› I guess if you wanted that sort of analysis you would import the log files into excel
21/11/2006 15:22:25 ‹James› logging to an access db is very easy in vb.
21/11/2006 15:22:35 ‹kevint› my todo list may be smaller but then so also is my brain and the time available
21/11/2006 15:23:02 ‹James› and you have more toys to play with
21/11/2006 15:23:06 ‹kevint› I particularly wanted a daily file rather than a growing access database
21/11/2006 15:23:42 ‹James› there is alot to be said for text files
21/11/2006 15:23:52 ‹James› csv ones i guess?
21/11/2006 15:24:16 ‹kevint› yes, with column titles in the first line
21/11/2006 15:25:10 ‹kevint› I was thinking about the time stamping, currently I have xAPtime, date and time as 3 different fields
21/11/2006 15:25:29 ‹kevint› but I am open to suggestions
21/11/2006 15:25:40 ‹James› it's sometimes better not to include them. At work there are systems that work like that and say i want to to load 50 days data. I can merge all the csvs to one file then loadit into excel.
21/11/2006 15:25:53 ‹James› If there were column headings then I would have 50 lines of bogus data
21/11/2006 15:26:21 ‹kevint› I will make that a user option then
21/11/2006 15:26:47 ‹James› and the ability to run as a service should be there too
21/11/2006 15:26:57 ‹James› that's my last suggestion
21/11/2006 15:27:33 ‹kevint› 50 days data would be 72000 records....
21/11/2006 15:27:53 ‹James› access will do 2gb of data per file
21/11/2006 15:28:27 ‹kevint› I think you sent me an example of nt service in your fish demo
21/11/2006 15:28:53 ‹James› i do remember send you something that used teh service control
21/11/2006 15:29:10 ‹kevint› I will find that an stick it in
21/11/2006 15:29:28 ‹James› it's a siple copy paste job
21/11/2006 15:29:51 ‹kevint› I need to attack the ajax thng next I think
21/11/2006 15:30:17 ‹James› true. and now grousp support ;-)
21/11/2006 15:30:28 ‹James› wow i can't type today
21/11/2006 15:30:53 ‹kevint› (B)
21/11/2006 15:31:03 ‹James› worringly no
21/11/2006 15:31:20 ‹kevint› well its not age
21/11/2006 15:31:57 ‹James› just a pebkac thing
21/11/2006 15:32:58 ‹James› ( as kevin goes googling)
21/11/2006 15:33:24 ‹kevint› indeed, think geek have a tee shirt
21/11/2006 15:33:58 ‹James› it's a great term. like Picnic only better
21/11/2006 15:33:56 ‹kevint› I call it dyslexic fingers
21/11/2006 15:35:18 ‹kevint› so when were you going to let me beta the new ocx?
21/11/2006 15:35:56 ‹James› i need to add a few new functions, so may be tomorrow, maybe tonight
21/11/2006 15:36:47 ‹kevint› is this the security stuff?
21/11/2006 15:37:19 ‹James› mainly
21/11/2006 15:38:42 ‹James› I've now got floorplan with user accounts and overrides to allow localnetwork access with out passsword and this is per tab not just blanket access
21/11/2006 15:39:14 ‹kevint› growing up then ;)
21/11/2006 15:39:38 ‹James› it's simple but pretty effective
21/11/2006 15:40:07 ‹kevint› good to see the credit on automated home got googled
21/11/2006 15:40:26 ‹James› yep, t'was nice to see
21/11/2006 15:44:59 ‹kevint› whoops, the current graph is 60 minutes moy 30
21/11/2006 15:45:11 ‹kevint› moy=not
21/11/2006 15:46:01 ‹James› so do youhave these temp sensors around the house or just on the work bench?
21/11/2006 15:47:03 ‹kevint› currently only on the work bench till i finish the app
21/11/2006 15:47:22 ‹James› and then?
21/11/2006 15:47:59 ‹kevint› then i want to monitor the hot water tank, outside and loft temperatures and the upstairs landing
21/11/2006 15:48:20 ‹James› how many sesnors can it do?
21/11/2006 15:48:29 ‹kevint› so I will connect it to a xAPbox that is in the loft
21/11/2006 15:48:45 ‹kevint› the quasar 3145 does 4 temps
21/11/2006 15:49:11 ‹kevint› The temp05/temp08 will do up to 20
21/11/2006 15:49:42 ‹kevint› and then there are various other one wire interfaces
21/11/2006 15:50:06 ‹James› 20 should cover a pretty big house. are there cable length issues?
21/11/2006 15:50:11 ‹kevint› but they require more effort in the PC interface
21/11/2006 15:50:24 ‹kevint› and more grunt in the pc
21/11/2006 15:51:02 ‹kevint› not for a normal property, ther e are network gudelines published by maxim
21/11/2006 15:51:36 ‹kevint› cat 5 is plenty adequate, and cat 3/telephone seems to work
21/11/2006 15:51:54 ‹James› so a 40m cable would be ok?
21/11/2006 15:52:21 ‹kevint› just checking but i think so
21/11/2006 15:52:41 ‹James› just thinking about putting one in the pond
21/11/2006 15:53:11 ‹kevint› http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/148
21/11/2006 15:53:44 ‹kevint› someoneon ukha did that i think using brass bullet cases
21/11/2006 15:54:01 ‹James› clever
21/11/2006 15:55:45 ‹kevint› I think inserted the sensor in the case and filled with araldite, he published some pictures i think
21/11/2006 15:56:03 ‹James› i'll do a search
21/11/2006 15:56:18 ‹kevint› that document talks of 200, 400 and 750 metres
21/11/2006 15:56:28 ‹kevint› but I think 100m is realistic
21/11/2006 15:56:38 ‹James› more than enough
21/11/2006 15:57:21 ‹kevint› the quasar is a little different in that it has 4 connectors for 4 sensors rather than a bus
21/11/2006 15:57:56 ‹James› but it's still data over teh wires. not some resistance based sensor?
21/11/2006 15:58:11 ‹kevint› http://www.quasarelectronics.com/3145.htm
21/11/2006 15:58:25 ‹kevint› oh yes a one wire DS1820
21/11/2006 15:59:11 ‹James› k, it's tiny!
21/11/2006 15:59:53 ‹kevint› and if you dont like my connector there is always, edwards or patricks, even an xfx one, and I think kh has an unpublished one too
21/11/2006 16:00:23 ‹kevint› yes if your school has a ccf the a ,22 case might do
21/11/2006 16:00:27 ‹James› well i would need service support?
21/11/2006 16:00:47 ‹kevint› I will do that now then shall i?
21/11/2006 16:00:57 ‹James› ok?
21/11/2006 16:01:23 ‹kevint› not a problem
21/11/2006 16:02:21 ‹kevint› well 25.95 gets you a built 3145 incling a sensor
21/11/2006 16:02:31 ‹kevint› delivey is a coupla days
21/11/2006 16:02:43 ‹kevint› (no conection to quasar)
21/11/2006 16:03:20 ‹James› I presume there is no ethernet version?
21/11/2006 16:05:30 ‹kevint› I think I have seen some but they are industrial quality
21/11/2006 16:05:35 ‹kevint› and price
21/11/2006 16:05:46 ‹James› serial it is then :-(
21/11/2006 16:09:37 ‹James› (B) happy now
21/11/2006 16:10:01 ‹James› so what is on your santa list?
21/11/2006 16:10:30 ‹kevint› the TO-92 package is 0.195 max diameter
21/11/2006 16:11:04 ‹kevint› so a .22 case would be good
21/11/2006 16:11:33 ‹kevint› the q3145 requires no extra poer btw
21/11/2006 16:11:39 ‹kevint› power
21/11/2006 16:12:08 ‹kevint› I am open to sugetions really
21/11/2006 16:12:44 ‹James› my list is blank at the mo :-(
21/11/2006 16:12:51 ‹kevint› I saw a nice picture frame tonight in currys
21/11/2006 16:13:05 ‹kevint› but it did not have a nic
21/11/2006 16:13:22 ‹kevint› and they have not implemented xap on it
21/11/2006 16:13:30 ‹kevint› so thats a no no
21/11/2006 16:13:30 ‹James› I have one of the phillips ones, but it's SD based. i wish it did wifi
21/11/2006 16:13:40 * lehane joins My room
21/11/2006 16:14:07 ‹lehane› hi all
21/11/2006 16:14:12 ‹kevint› I did see a logix wifi radio which also played mp3s fromthe serverf
21/11/2006 16:14:16 ‹kevint› hi
21/11/2006 16:14:20 ‹James› hi
21/11/2006 16:14:27 ‹kevint› but i think i will stick to the slimp3
21/11/2006 16:15:05 ‹James› even though the new squeezebox look lovely, the slimp3 does have a nice retro quality
21/11/2006 16:15:34 ‹KevinH› back...
21/11/2006 16:16:03 ‹kevint› retro?
21/11/2006 16:16:03 ‹KevinH› J - you could stick teh Quasar onto teh netiom serial port to get Ethernet temp readings
21/11/2006 16:16:15 ‹kevint› does yours have dials then?
21/11/2006 16:16:28 ‹James› oo, can you. Ideal!
21/11/2006 16:16:28 * Edward joins My room
21/11/2006 16:16:45 ‹KevinH› The Quasar chats continually - sending the temp reading for each of its for sensors (cycling one by one)
21/11/2006 16:17:01 ‹KevinH› Tne TOM10 has to be polled
21/11/2006 16:17:04 ‹James› so huge numbers of bsc serial messages
21/11/2006 16:17:24 ‹KevinH› I think its one every sec or so...
21/11/2006 16:17:57 ‹Edward› Nope - more than that - basically as fast as 4800 baud will go
21/11/2006 16:17:57 ‹kevint› yes 1 reading per sec per channel
21/11/2006 16:17:57 ‹James› not sure i liek teh sound of that. I think i have a spare serial port so I'll use that for now!
21/11/2006 16:18:31 ‹kevint› you could probablyt do it with an ms100
21/11/2006 16:18:46 ‹kevint› virtual serial port then
21/11/2006 16:18:47 ‹KevinH› My xAP traffic is around 250/min currently with all things running
21/11/2006 16:19:04 ‹James› can your app talk to an quasar on a ms100?
21/11/2006 16:19:17 ‹James› mines about 35/min
21/11/2006 16:19:24 ‹kevint› havent tried that yet
21/11/2006 16:19:37 ‹KevinH› Not running the SlimServer then ;-) ?
21/11/2006 16:19:39 ‹kevint› but i will add it to my todo
21/11/2006 16:20:01 ‹lehane› 30 devices/498 subs/86 minute
21/11/2006 16:20:02 ‹James› yes i am, with Edwarsds plugin
21/11/2006 16:20:41 ‹James› Edward, i think I have found an issue with teh display queue on the slimplugin
21/11/2006 16:20:45 ‹KevinH› Well the message rate there is above 35 I'm guessing (whilst playing)
21/11/2006 16:21:17 ‹Edward› 1 xAP-transport message persecond per player when playing
21/11/2006 16:21:26 ‹James› it sees if you send tw messages in succession, they both get displayed correctly in sequence but after the last messages is displayed the screen blanks for 20+ seconds
21/11/2006 16:21:48 ‹James› sees=seems tw=two
21/11/2006 16:22:03 ‹James› (i'm having a bad keyboard day)
21/11/2006 16:22:43 ‹Edward› email us the messages pls and I'll try to reproduce
21/11/2006 16:22:54 ‹James› np
21/11/2006 16:22:57 ‹KevinH› J - if you revisit Launcher it may be a good time to define how to advertise a config page...
21/11/2006 16:23:37 ‹KevinH› .. and the OCX of course
21/11/2006 16:23:40 ‹James› er, forgot about that issue
21/11/2006 16:23:51 ‹KevinH› would tidy things up a bit
21/11/2006 16:23:57 ‹lehane› J, is that when playing? The only artifcact I see is between messages the original display shows for xx mS
21/11/2006 16:23:58 ‹James› I'll play. Group support seems to work well though
21/11/2006 16:24:09 ‹KevinH› I read ... above :-)
21/11/2006 16:24:24 ‹James› no, not playing. I don't use them much for music!
21/11/2006 16:24:27 ‹KevinH› Toby is still alive and well btw
21/11/2006 16:24:46 ‹James› he would make a nice soup
21/11/2006 16:24:46 ‹KevinH› although very full atm...
21/11/2006 16:27:21 ‹James› lehane I had a question about tsc, let me open the doc
21/11/2006 16:27:48 ‹lehane› anyone thoughts on how to run xAP touch screens? Like static (xml file) or xAP message for display, BSC for responses, etc, etc...
21/11/2006 16:28:05 ‹James› ( i'm going to duck now)
21/11/2006 16:28:30 ‹lehane› was thinking of the simmetry unit or similar
21/11/2006 16:29:09 ‹kevint› I think you should own up
21/11/2006 16:29:42 ‹lehane› who?
21/11/2006 16:29:53 ‹James› L, you have messages such as the info.energy one. where you have a period as well as a datetime. It's unclear if teh datetime is now or thebeginning of the period
21/11/2006 16:29:57 ‹James› me.
21/11/2006 16:29:57 ‹kevint› James
21/11/2006 16:30:06 ‹James› I have an unreleased Touchscreen app
21/11/2006 16:30:16 ‹James› it was an offshoot of Desktop
21/11/2006 16:30:31 ‹kevint› we did a lot of work on that
21/11/2006 16:30:40 ‹kevint› i mean i broke it often ;)
21/11/2006 16:30:41 ‹lehane› ah, for BIG screens, not 128x64 though?
21/11/2006 16:30:49 ‹James› very similar config but full screen and designed for finger use
21/11/2006 16:31:08 ‹James› I had it ona point510, and some POS units
21/11/2006 16:31:38 ‹lehane› I have some of them :-D
21/11/2006 16:31:56 ‹kevint› The point 510 wasnt brilliant I think
21/11/2006 16:32:00 ‹James› i tried to make it light so it ran on them reasonable quicky
21/11/2006 16:32:03 ‹kevint› had to be win98
21/11/2006 16:32:13 ‹James› but the 510 was, as kt, not great
21/11/2006 16:32:28 ‹James› but the 510 was, as kt said, not great
21/11/2006 16:32:32 ‹lehane› no, too slow, the Celeron 500 (C500) is much, much better
21/11/2006 16:32:34 ‹James› :$
21/11/2006 16:32:39 ‹kevint› I have 2 3400's here jsut waiting...
21/11/2006 16:34:13 ‹James› my todo list just got bigger then
21/11/2006 16:34:19 ‹KevinH› L - What 'smarts' has the touchscreen lcd got eg RAM - processing ?
21/11/2006 16:34:45 ‹kevint› ;)
21/11/2006 16:35:50 ‹lehane› It has a few interfaces, inc RS232, and is preprogrammed with a menuing/touch response system
21/11/2006 16:36:34 ‹KevinH› so the menu hierarchy is defined and it will step through these as needed by itself ?
21/11/2006 16:37:18 ‹lehane› no, you tell it is a menu type=a (which may be 4x4) and then define each button. You can then get a response to each by polling
21/11/2006 16:37:45 ‹lehane› so in a config file you could define a menu structure and the BSC repsonses
21/11/2006 16:38:42 ‹KevinH› and this is a monochrome (not greyscale) display ?
21/11/2006 16:39:18 ‹lehane› J, datetime is the time the activity happened. Period is period since reset (reset message missing:$)
21/11/2006 16:39:32 ‹KevinH› ..and it is 'driven' by an external engine then , over say RS232 (sees responses and changes display)
21/11/2006 16:39:47 ‹James› k, just needed clearing up
21/11/2006 16:40:04 ‹lehane› kh, yes mono - engine would be on PC
21/11/2006 16:40:32 ‹KevinH› right... and the display is 'commercial' or your design...
21/11/2006 16:40:48 ‹lehane› commercial www.simmetry.com
21/11/2006 16:42:38 ‹KevinH› so somehow you tell the controller that an 'area' of presumably any defined size is one touch area and it will reoprt that as 'touch A' for example and you can redefine these areas on teh fly as you change screens
21/11/2006 16:43:09 ‹KevinH› and you can have several different sized areas active on one screen
21/11/2006 16:44:00 ‹lehane› no, it is simpler than that unless you create bmp's and your own maps, just a selection of useful types
21/11/2006 16:44:54 ‹lehane› but you can have backgrounds and remove unwanted buttons
21/11/2006 16:45:18 ‹KevinH› Just trying to get my head around what makes a sensible way to utilise this from xAP
21/11/2006 16:45:50 ‹KevinH› (via your PC app)
21/11/2006 16:48:49 ‹KevinH› E - you there ?
21/11/2006 16:51:29 ‹Edward› Yup (multitasking)
21/11/2006 16:52:44 ‹KevinH› In relation to SlimServer I think in the discussions around 11thJan2005 on teh xAPDev list we were thinking...
21/11/2006 16:54:05 ‹KevinH› That perhpas sending transport event messages every 10 secs was a good compromise with this increasing in the last few secs of a tracks playing time to maybe 1 every second or even more frequently...
21/11/2006 16:55:11 ‹KevinH› although we had little input at the time - was this something that you feel is better every sec or just a 'for now' / 'lets see' suggestion ?
21/11/2006 16:55:46 ‹KevinH› I think teh logic was that towards the end we needed higher frequencies to allow better synching
21/11/2006 16:56:14 ‹KevinH› if something was to want to synchronise on the track end/start
21/11/2006 16:56:30 ‹Edward› I read those discussions and thought that 1 per second was what what was asked for - so I followed that. I must have missed the 10 till near the end bit
21/11/2006 16:57:25 ‹KevinH› .... for example I update the
21/11/2006 16:57:37 ‹Edward› Fond it now
21/11/2006 16:57:39 ‹KevinH› oops copy paste failed
21/11/2006 16:57:41 ‹Edward› Found
21/11/2006 16:58:03 ‹KevinH› Maybe it was just the way i did it ... not an agreement
21/11/2006 16:59:14 ‹KevinH› Was just trying to reduce network traffic but also allowing for a 'just launched' controller in eg xAP desktop to pickup the 'now playing' info and the current track positioning always within 10 secs
21/11/2006 17:00:30 ‹lehane› A first cut on a touch screen http://www.mm-wave.com/simmetry1.jpg - its the 'standby screen'
21/11/2006 17:01:26 ‹kevint› nice
21/11/2006 17:01:38 ‹James› very nice
21/11/2006 17:01:49 ‹lehane› graphic design isn't my strong point!
21/11/2006 17:01:55 ‹James› and blue, can't go wrong with blue
21/11/2006 17:02:11 ‹kevint› nice bee
21/11/2006 17:02:33 ‹KevinH› I think I need to read the Simmetry docs.. before I can get my xAp mind around it - it seems that getting presses to xAPBSC.events or even .cmds would be useful and maybe using a BSC text device to update text would be nice but then ...
21/11/2006 17:02:39 ‹lehane› yes - everything is blue - I changed the Dyanlite LED's to blue
21/11/2006 17:02:53 ‹Edward› Seems odd to be worrying about xAP network traffic in the region of one UDP packet per second when the SlimServer is spewing out multiple audio streams as well as all the packets to animate its displays
21/11/2006 17:03:49 ‹Edward› Not to mention refreshing web browser interface with complete page reloads
21/11/2006 17:03:51 ‹KevinH› ..maybe this is the wrong layer I'm thinking at and all the logic/driving will be at a lower level...
21/11/2006 17:04:11 ‹kevint› on a new subject, anyone played with rfid ?
21/11/2006 17:04:25 ‹lehane› I'll put my menuing spec up later in the week. Bear in mind it is pretty specific to the simmetry device - but they are cheap!
21/11/2006 17:04:56 ‹lehane› _real_ RFID or security RFID?
21/11/2006 17:05:00 ‹KevinH› The xAP traffic is absolutely minimal I agree - just puts a lot of messages in Viewer ;-) and of course all the xAP receiving devices have to parse each one... but it's not an issue here
21/11/2006 17:05:35 ‹kevint› whats thge difference?
21/11/2006 17:06:29 ‹lehane› RFID on products/packaging 10-50p each (EPC Generation 2). RFID ISO 1443 about 150p
21/11/2006 17:06:31 ‹KevinH› E - I'm comfortable with it as it is really....
21/11/2006 17:06:45 ‹kevint› I have a device here that claims to do rfid at 8 metres further with good aerial
21/11/2006 17:06:59 ‹lehane› 13.56MHz?
21/11/2006 17:07:07 ‹kevint› and is probably neither of those ;)
21/11/2006 17:07:24 ‹KevinH› It would be nice to have options in Viewer to filter its messages (such that they never get in teh buffer at all)
21/11/2006 17:09:26 ‹KevinH› What size is that device K ?
21/11/2006 17:09:31 ‹kevint› 315Mhz
21/11/2006 17:10:03 ‹kevint› well the reciever is about the size of a quasar
21/11/2006 17:10:13 ‹kevint› serial interface
21/11/2006 17:10:30 ‹lehane› eek! 315MHz is US only. 433MHz in EU
21/11/2006 17:11:01 ‹kevint› i wont tell if you wont
21/11/2006 17:11:10 ‹Edward› Agree - viewer needs to be re-thought to meet the needs of busy xAP networks - it's becoming almost impossible to debug with stuff flying up the screen! (it's also a very inefficient app)
21/11/2006 17:11:18 ‹KevinH› The RFID tag is a powered TX ?
21/11/2006 17:11:27 ‹lehane› 315MHz in middle of military aeronutical......
21/11/2006 17:11:49 ‹kevint› the transmitter is 4cm bu 4.5 cm most of which is a cr2032
21/11/2006 17:12:05 ‹kevint› 433 versions are available
21/11/2006 17:12:22 ‹KevinH› It's very clumsy in high traffic - and it displays messages in the wrong order (not as they are rx)
21/11/2006 17:12:38 ‹kevint› i dont think an 8m range is going cause any navigational errors
21/11/2006 17:13:34 ‹kevint› I was thinking of putting one in our cars
21/11/2006 17:13:39 ‹KevinH› famous last words... as he thinks of Pace Digi boxes sending SOS signals to coastguards...
21/11/2006 17:13:50 ‹kevint› so that when we get home i can have xFP events
21/11/2006 17:14:37 ‹kevint› real or cyber legend?
21/11/2006 17:14:49 ‹lehane› and most car keyfobs are on 433MHz (433.92 to be exact)
21/11/2006 17:14:49 ‹KevinH› Real...
21/11/2006 17:15:31 ‹KevinH› They happen to have a spurii on the costguard distress frequency
21/11/2006 17:15:42 ‹KevinH› very bizarre
21/11/2006 17:16:08 ‹KevinH› 433Mhz - its a jungle out there :-)
21/11/2006 17:16:53 ‹KevinH› inc the 2m Amateur band
21/11/2006 17:17:03 ‹lehane› 70cm...
21/11/2006 17:17:08 ‹KevinH› sorry
21/11/2006 17:17:28 ‹KevinH› Sorry long time since Ive been on it (144 or 433)
21/11/2006 17:17:38 ‹James› Lehane, just remembered my other tsc question
21/11/2006 17:18:02 ‹James› bsc had a nice, optional, concept of DisplayText=
21/11/2006 17:18:13 ‹James› any chance of adding it?
21/11/2006 17:18:39 ‹James› would be ideal for display screens!
21/11/2006 17:18:59 ‹lehane› don't see any reason why not, the consuming apps can decide whether to display or process and display
21/11/2006 17:19:28 ‹James› indeed.
21/11/2006 17:20:04 ‹KevinH› its quite useful for threshold limits as well - eg on a temp sensor having 'normal' 'hot' 'cold' 'alarm' etc
21/11/2006 17:20:31 ‹lehane› ah! alarms. A new class xAPTSC.alarm?
21/11/2006 17:21:09 ‹James› as in a big .event?
21/11/2006 17:21:35 ‹lehane› yes, when passing some preset hi/lo/whatever value
21/11/2006 17:22:20 ‹KevinH› The problem with TSC is that actually it encompasses such a huge range of devices - almost every input and output device and so they'll be loads of things that will be desireable
21/11/2006 17:22:21 ‹James› and sent as a replacement for or as well as a .event?
21/11/2006 17:22:55 ‹KevinH› I think 'alarms' are an important 'accompanying' one
21/11/2006 17:23:16 ‹James› I did wonder if setpoints belong in aseperate block.
21/11/2006 17:23:50 ‹James› as they are realyl quite seperate
21/11/2006 17:24:00 ‹KevinH› .. as are things like min max average - which raises the whole 'over what period' as well
21/11/2006 17:24:39 ‹James› I think alarm may be better as a block within a .event message?
21/11/2006 17:24:58 ‹lehane› setpoints are about the process rather than the measurement. min/max/period need a reset message defining.
21/11/2006 17:26:48 ‹James› i see what a setpiont is in a .cmd but what does it mean ina .event?
21/11/2006 17:26:51 ‹KevinH› The reset message would solve some of that althougha device might still want to be able to report several stats eg min/max in last hour and also last day and since reset
21/11/2006 17:27:34 ‹lehane› kh, I think that gets too complex and the monitoring apps can do the maths
21/11/2006 17:27:37 ‹KevinH› Maybe a start/end xAPTime field included within a block
21/11/2006 17:27:52 * kevint quit (timeout)
21/11/2006 17:28:12 ‹lehane› in an event it means the value passed the setpoint.
21/11/2006 17:28:14 ‹James› more block usage would, it think, make things clearer
21/11/2006 17:28:47 ‹James› doesn't a .event just mean a change?
21/11/2006 17:28:52 ‹KevinH› with that a device could report any stats it wanted - including the last 'reset' time if it was just reporting since then...
21/11/2006 17:30:13 ‹lehane› .event does mean change, the inclusion of the setpoint means change and > setpoint. But separate blocks makes a lot of sense
21/11/2006 17:30:38 ‹James› how would you know if it had passed the setpoint or hadn't got to the setpoint?
21/11/2006 17:31:16 * kevint quit (timeout)
21/11/2006 17:32:42 ‹lehane› only by comparison
21/11/2006 17:33:07 ‹James› k
21/11/2006 17:33:49 ‹lehane› bear in mind the setpoint could be changed by the user outside of xAP
21/11/2006 17:34:15 ‹James› and that change should trigger a .event?
21/11/2006 17:34:28 * kevint quit (timeout)
21/11/2006 17:34:35 ‹lehane› thats what the spec currently says
21/11/2006 17:34:52 ‹James› so it does!
21/11/2006 17:36:05 ‹lehane› the biggest problem with TSC is the potential complexity of the devices
21/11/2006 17:36:34 ‹James› indeed, keeping things simple is really complicated
21/11/2006 17:36:56 ‹lehane› yep, a case of the 80/20 rule
21/11/2006 17:37:12 ‹James› very true
21/11/2006 17:37:38 * kevint quit (timeout)
21/11/2006 17:39:54 ‹James› grr, ie7 is being forced on me :-(
21/11/2006 17:40:32 ‹lehane› so, separate bodies for alarms, setpoints and datetimes for the measuring periods?
21/11/2006 17:41:35 ‹lehane› thought you were a firefox man
21/11/2006 17:41:43 ‹James› yes please. I do think that keeping to the .info .event .cmd and .query is a nice base. an Alarm is an extension of a .event
21/11/2006 17:41:55 ‹James› its the auto update thing
21/11/2006 17:42:39 ‹lehane› yes - a body with alarm.temperature and/or setpoint.temperature , etc........
21/11/2006 17:42:55 ‹James› yep, seems a neat solution
21/11/2006 17:43:28 ‹lehane› OK- KH, any view?
21/11/2006 17:45:37 ‹KevinH› I think that sounds fine -
21/11/2006 17:46:37 ‹KevinH› I do like the ability to report any statistical info eg MAX MIN or AVG within one block with a start and end time though to cover all teh possibilities
21/11/2006 17:47:07 ‹KevinH› Its not practical to have a receiver constantly storing/monitoring every packet
21/11/2006 17:47:26 ‹lehane› J - one floorplan question, (OK 2) if a timer exists and you add another of the same name, presumably it just updates? and can you tell if a timer exists?
21/11/2006 17:47:36 ‹KevinH› KevinT can't get back on here for some reason
21/11/2006 17:47:59 ‹lehane› K - OK, so one block for max.temperature, one for min.temperature, etc
21/11/2006 17:48:08 ‹James› this add a timer from a script?
21/11/2006 17:48:15 ‹lehane› J - yes
21/11/2006 17:48:44 ‹James› l, it just adds a new timer. It won't update an existing one
21/11/2006 17:49:08 ‹lehane› even if the same name?
21/11/2006 17:49:22 ‹James› yep, the name really doesn't matter
21/11/2006 17:49:31 ‹KevinH› You could perhpas have one block for all stats ? and just add appriate parameters eg Max= Min= Avg= couldn't you ?
21/11/2006 17:49:40 ‹lehane› aaah, that explains a lot!
21/11/2006 17:50:13 ‹James› I guess a CheckTimer and Updatetimer function would be usefult them
21/11/2006 17:50:37 ‹lehane› K- yes, one block for stats on the basis that a reset resets them all
21/11/2006 17:51:27 ‹lehane› J - yes...please...
21/11/2006 17:51:55 ‹KevinH› what I meant is that adevice could choose to support several stats and send appropriate blocks for a weekly, daily and hourly range - and also a user 'resettable' one too - makes it totally flexible
21/11/2006 17:52:31 ‹lehane› K- sorry, yes I see what you mean. I was hung up on the resettable ones
21/11/2006 17:52:50 ‹KevinH› you get that too :-)
21/11/2006 17:53:22 ‹KevinH› KT says goodnight btw - he can't get back on....
21/11/2006 17:53:32 ‹lehane› yes, so a raingauge could do annual rainfall.. etc
21/11/2006 17:53:40 ‹KevinH› .. and adds "although i will say that I think alarms deserve a separate schema"
21/11/2006 17:53:40 ‹lehane› as well as daily
21/11/2006 17:54:57 ‹KevinH› it could do any ranges - and maybe some really fancy device you could send a 'start' and 'end' xAptime to it and it would report appropriately - but that is an 80/20 thing
21/11/2006 17:55:46 ‹lehane› yes, let gauge (as an example) do daily/annual and have single user resettable counter
21/11/2006 17:56:01 ‹KevinH› A single xAP message could have several blocks with stats over different time periods hourly/daily/last reset/ annual
21/11/2006 17:56:41 ‹lehane› I think there's a danger of blowing the packet size...
21/11/2006 17:56:57 ‹KevinH› The only thought is should we report the actual time of the Max and Min somehwo - we probably should
21/11/2006 17:57:47 ‹lehane› starttime= , endtime=, eventtime=
21/11/2006 17:57:55 ‹KevinH› If you blow the packet size then you can split it into several packets (or use the 'continuation' packet system we half discussed a while back)
21/11/2006 17:58:32 ‹KevinH› would have to be MaxTime and MinTime - the starttime and endtime apply to both of course
21/11/2006 17:58:44 ‹lehane› yes
21/11/2006 17:58:56 ‹KevinH› seems good
21/11/2006 17:59:30 ‹lehane› OK, I'll do an update with (more) examples. Covered a lot tonight
21/11/2006 17:59:32 ‹James› on times. there was talk on dealing with ms
21/11/2006 17:59:38 ‹KevinH› . but these thinsg always do at first pass.... and then you get a 'but'....
21/11/2006 18:00:01 ‹lehane› YYYYMMDDHHMMSSsss
21/11/2006 18:00:05 ‹KevinH› Can you cc me L with the update - I never got any previous ones
21/11/2006 18:00:09 ‹James› there is no reason why ms could be after s in the usual dattime concept
21/11/2006 18:00:17 ‹James› o, yes
21/11/2006 18:01:04 ‹lehane› KH - drop me a mail with the mail address you'd like it sent. You were on the last ones, so it got filtered
21/11/2006 18:01:45 ‹KevinH› will do...
21/11/2006 18:04:02 ‹lehane› of course ISO 8601 would be 20061121T235959999
21/11/2006 18:04:46 ‹James› with a +1 etc at teh end
21/11/2006 18:04:53 ‹James› for timezones
21/11/2006 18:05:04 ‹lehane› which means it's time for me to turn into a pumpkin!
21/11/2006 18:05:57 ‹lehane› I think we can do without the T and the +1
21/11/2006 18:06:42 ‹James› yep. as xAP is local I don't think the concept of timezones is really needed
21/11/2006 18:07:13 ‹lehane› and from the lenght you can see if it has the three mS values
21/11/2006 18:08:26 ‹James› yep
21/11/2006 18:08:43 ‹lehane› OK, I'm going to call it a nite...
21/11/2006 18:08:56 ‹KevinH› Nite L
21/11/2006 18:09:05 * lehane quit
21/11/2006 18:09:06 ‹James› nite
21/11/2006 18:09:13 ‹KevinH› J - KT's 'midnight' file was created ok
21/11/2006 18:09:27 ‹KevinH› so he's well happy
21/11/2006 18:10:12 ‹James› erm
21/11/2006 18:10:25 ‹KevinH› The Quasar log file
21/11/2006 18:10:37 ‹James› ah
21/11/2006 18:10:56 ‹KevinH› ..... an interesting one I found...
21/11/2006 18:11:22 ‹KevinH› Sonos - has a Perl interface available
21/11/2006 18:11:40 ‹KevinH› which implements a web server
21/11/2006 18:11:48 ‹James› oo, that'll be up Edwards street
21/11/2006 18:12:14 ‹KevinH› and allows full searching of the Sonos Library and tarnsport control with event reporting
21/11/2006 18:12:32 ‹KevinH› .but Sonos has Rhapsody support inbuilt
21/11/2006 18:12:51 ‹KevinH› so you can serach Rhapsodys online catalog (3m songs)
21/11/2006 18:13:02 ‹KevinH› and then play any one u want
21/11/2006 18:13:19 ‹James› nice
21/11/2006 18:13:35 ‹KevinH› So a xAP 'play me this song' schema could be done ...
21/11/2006 18:13:53 ‹James› i would still like a upnp one though
21/11/2006 18:14:00 ‹KevinH› Me too
21/11/2006 18:14:16 ‹KevinH› The latest SlimServer will play from a uPNP server too
21/11/2006 18:14:40 ‹KevinH› Actually - the Perl one for Sonos does everything via uPNP
21/11/2006 18:14:56 ‹KevinH› and has full source
21/11/2006 18:15:24 ‹KevinH› Shame E hasn't got Sonos ;-)
21/11/2006 18:15:35 ‹KevinH› yet...
21/11/2006 18:15:38 ‹James› maybe santa will be good
21/11/2006 18:16:07 ‹KevinH› Did I tell u I have a ZigBee module sat here ?
21/11/2006 18:16:18 ‹James› you did
21/11/2006 18:17:03 ‹KevinH› Just need to finish HV interface
21/11/2006 18:17:24 ‹KevinH› Problem is I cant fit the HV 'name' table into teh Rabbit
21/11/2006 18:18:04 ‹KevinH› NP on BSC events and infos as i can recover the name near instantaneously over teh serial interafce (for teh sub name)
21/11/2006 18:18:17 ‹James› can you not just store hashes pf the names , so store less data?
21/11/2006 18:18:33 ‹KevinH› but on incoming BSCcmds I cant wildcard match
21/11/2006 18:18:47 ‹James› ah, true
21/11/2006 18:18:55 ‹KevinH› I actually implemented hashes to match names
21/11/2006 18:19:19 ‹KevinH› but names then forgot that '.' s in names would create sub hierarchies
21/11/2006 18:19:49 ‹KevinH› delete first 'names'
21/11/2006 18:20:22 ‹KevinH› so wildcards not possible
21/11/2006 18:20:37 ‹James› things are never simple
21/11/2006 18:21:10 ‹KevinH› I could individually hash all the text between '.' s I suppose as individual names
21/11/2006 18:21:32 ‹James› that would probably use more space though
21/11/2006 18:21:49 ‹KevinH› Names are 16 chars
21/11/2006 18:22:15 ‹KevinH› and I guess most would only have none or 1 hierachy - maybe 2 at most
21/11/2006 18:22:20 ‹James› ok, then it wold help
21/11/2006 18:22:53 ‹KevinH› I 'may' be able to store the nametable in Flash as it doesn't change much
21/11/2006 18:23:22 ‹KevinH› but teh Flash handling libraries are proably larger than teh saving
21/11/2006 18:23:46 ‹James› i'm glad i don't have to worry about memory
21/11/2006 18:24:14 ‹KevinH› It is the biggest frustration - aside from string handling
21/11/2006 18:24:38 ‹James› i'm just on the easy street then
21/11/2006 18:24:42 ‹KevinH› Having to share variables wherever possible
21/11/2006 18:25:35 ‹KevinH› .. and Globals are out as the 'mutitasking' bit means that a loop can get interrupted by another bit of code using teh same vars
21/11/2006 18:26:12 ‹KevinH› As if found when a loop going 0-255 suddenly gave a value of 63000
21/11/2006 18:26:53 ‹KevinH› and a write to a 256 char string went into teh middle of my program code
21/11/2006 18:27:42 ‹James› i can see why you get annoyed
21/11/2006 18:28:05 ‹KevinH› If I get everything in - I may 'xAP intranet enable' it
21/11/2006 18:28:13 ‹Edward› Why is the time on the chat log 6 hours out? Are we just trying to pretend it's not quite tea-time?
21/11/2006 18:28:52 ‹James› the server is now in the US, PST time i think
21/11/2006 18:28:55 ‹KevinH› Oooh E - you're not asking Santa for a Sonos system are you by any chance ?
21/11/2006 18:31:01 ‹Edward› No - why would I want one? Even if it does have a perl interface. And I don't have time to listen to all the music I already own in my expected lifespan, so another 3m isn't going to help!
21/11/2006 18:31:58 ‹KevinH› You get to hear Kylie before she's even released it -and get pictures too ;-)
21/11/2006 18:32:13 ‹James› but it's a new toy. any practicle matters like using it don't matter
21/11/2006 18:32:38 ‹Edward› Been busying myself with a formal XML schema for xAP messages! Much more ***y than Kylie (IMHO)
21/11/2006 18:32:55 ‹Edward› Why can't I say ***y?
21/11/2006 18:33:13 ‹KevinH› Content filtering
21/11/2006 18:33:15 ‹James› oo. xml > jabber.. nice
21/11/2006 18:33:23 ‹KevinH› - probaly cos server is in teh US ;-)
21/11/2006 18:33:24 ‹Edward› FFS
21/11/2006 18:33:34 ‹James› didn't know this thing had filtering
21/11/2006 18:33:48 ‹KevinH› ****
21/11/2006 18:33:49 ‹James› **** bum tit
21/11/2006 18:33:51 ‹KevinH› yep
21/11/2006 18:33:56 ‹Edward› ****ers
21/11/2006 18:33:57 ‹James› k
21/11/2006 18:34:13 ‹KevinH› fanny
21/11/2006 18:34:14 ‹Edward› Kyle has neither
21/11/2006 18:34:19 ‹KevinH› hah hah
21/11/2006 18:34:26 ‹James› lol
21/11/2006 18:34:33 ‹KevinH› it is American
21/11/2006 18:34:57 ‹James› cricket
21/11/2006 18:34:58 ‹Edward› The xAP XML schema isn't very skinny either
21/11/2006 18:35:01 ‹James› football
21/11/2006 18:35:34 ‹KevinH› Is it working out OK
21/11/2006 18:35:38 ‹James› but it would allow simple transprot over a jabber link
21/11/2006 18:35:44 ‹Edward› Test: George W Bush
21/11/2006 18:36:01 ‹Edward› Hmm, not very fussy is it
21/11/2006 18:36:35 ‹Edward› J you going to mail me your troublesome messages?
21/11/2006 18:36:40 ‹KevinH› ***y
21/11/2006 18:36:45 ‹KevinH› s e x y
21/11/2006 18:36:48 ‹KevinH› or clever
21/11/2006 18:37:20 ‹James› i'm just trying to find one. I keep seeing it happen. but now i can't replicate it. it's annoying!
21/11/2006 18:37:31 ‹Edward› :-)
21/11/2006 18:37:50 ‹KevinH› E - what 'queuing' is actually implemented in your code ? Are priorites supported and different players
21/11/2006 18:38:20 ‹Edward› Multiple players - yes
21/11/2006 18:38:32 ‹Edward› A single queue for each player
21/11/2006 18:38:51 ‹Edward› with the ability ti interject 'immediate' messages
21/11/2006 18:39:01 ‹KevinH› But priorities are ignored..
21/11/2006 18:39:06 ‹KevinH› k
21/11/2006 18:39:33 ‹Edward› Two priorites: queued and immediate :-)
21/11/2006 18:39:41 ‹KevinH› That covers the 99/01 rule
21/11/2006 18:40:26 ‹James› if an immediate message comes in will the interupted message get replayed or is it dropped?
21/11/2006 18:40:31 ‹KevinH› and is more than I did for teh Roku
21/11/2006 18:41:19 ‹Edward› The interrupted message will be displayed for the duration that was remaining when it got interrupted
21/11/2006 18:41:27 ‹Edward› So
21/11/2006 18:41:36 ‹KevinH› what happens with two immediates ?
21/11/2006 18:41:42 ‹James› k, that's fine
21/11/2006 18:41:42 ‹Edward› if you interrupt a 20 second message
21/11/2006 18:41:49 ‹Edward› after 5 seconds
21/11/2006 18:42:02 ‹Edward› with a 5 second immediate message
21/11/2006 18:42:19 ‹Edward› the immediate mesage shows for 5 seconds
21/11/2006 18:42:38 ‹Edward› then then first message shows for its remaining 15 seconds
21/11/2006 18:42:54 ‹James› sounds ideal
21/11/2006 18:43:02 ‹Edward› Second immediate message will over write first immediate mesage
21/11/2006 18:43:16 ‹Edward› That's why it's immediate :-)
21/11/2006 18:43:29 ‹KevinH› if you send two immediates does the second one interrupt teh first (which then becomes queued ) ?
21/11/2006 18:43:43 ‹KevinH› ahh
21/11/2006 18:43:48 ‹Edward› No - but it's a good idea!
21/11/2006 18:44:01 ‹KevinH› seems logical
21/11/2006 18:44:02 ‹James› couldn't the overridden immediate message become the first in the queue?
21/11/2006 18:44:07 ‹Edward› Hmmm
21/11/2006 18:44:10 ‹James› o
21/11/2006 18:44:12 ‹Edward› never tested that
21/11/2006 18:44:26 ‹Edward› you know - it just might do that anyway!
21/11/2006 18:45:51 ‹KevinH› Also - just thinking on my feet here...
21/11/2006 18:46:00 ‹Edward› It does!
21/11/2006 18:46:15 ‹Edward› I'm even more cleaver than I thought!
21/11/2006 18:46:23 ‹Edward› Can't spell though
21/11/2006 18:46:42 ‹KevinH› SB and I talked about how useful a message queue xAP app would be ( ie teh queue bit as a separate app)
21/11/2006 18:47:28 ‹KevinH› This could easily be done by your app sending 'delayed' OSD messages back to something.
21/11/2006 18:47:36 ‹Edward› Hmmm - personally I think that's a bit backwards...
21/11/2006 18:47:38 ‹KevinH› eg Tivo
21/11/2006 18:48:07 ‹Edward› I'd prefer to have a display 'applet' running on the display device...
21/11/2006 18:48:08 ‹KevinH› Actually I think I agree as it would require SlimServer runningas well
21/11/2006 18:48:35 ‹KevinH› The display device could be really dumb - eg an LCD
21/11/2006 18:48:36 ‹Edward› That decides what to display based on non-display xAP messages
21/11/2006 18:48:48 ‹Edward› eg - for xAP weather
21/11/2006 18:49:33 ‹Edward› The display reads the forecast messages and shows what the user configured it to display
21/11/2006 18:50:00 ‹Edward› rather than the xAP weather app trying to second guess how its information should be displayed
21/11/2006 18:50:26 ‹Edward› The display is the 'natural owner' of the rendering - not the source application
21/11/2006 18:50:43 ‹KevinH› I have a xAP application that sort of does that called 'xAPpear' ]
21/11/2006 18:51:22 ‹Edward› So basically I think the xAP.OSDDisplay architecture is a bit pants
21/11/2006 18:51:25 ‹KevinH› It handles showing alarm status when needed but weather and email inetrleaved
21/11/2006 18:51:57 ‹Edward› I see pants isn't a naughty word
21/11/2006 18:52:00 ‹KevinH› OSD was another of those schema that when you try to build a 'great' version it gets really complex
21/11/2006 18:54:00 ‹KevinH› One other Q - can I get the contents of the currently displayed screen back from a Slimp3 ?
21/11/2006 18:54:06 ‹KevinH› via xAP ?
21/11/2006 18:55:03 ‹KevinH› or does the new CLI allow in any way you to 'punch' characters through onto an existing screen eg Now Playing ...
21/11/2006 18:56:28 ‹KevinH› I used to have teh current temperature and number of emails displayed on the standard SlimServer screens but I suspect they have messed up teh ability to do this now
21/11/2006 18:58:11 ‹Edward› There's a display.query message that'll return a display.notification response
21/11/2006 18:58:58 ‹KevinH› I wonder what happens when I send the same screen back for display (with a few charcters changed)
21/11/2006 18:59:12 ‹Edward› There's a promising looking plugin on the Slim site called SlimPanelz - not played with it yet
21/11/2006 18:59:24 ‹Edward› but it lets you carve up the display
21/11/2006 18:59:35 ‹Edward› into regions
21/11/2006 18:59:44 ‹Edward› and choose what to display in each
21/11/2006 18:59:56 ‹KevinH› it used to read what SlimServer was displaying - not what you sent abck which allowed you to effectively 'overlay' existing screens - I'll try it and see
21/11/2006 19:00:07 ‹KevinH› interesting
21/11/2006 19:00:51 ‹KevinH› How do you egt info into PanelZ I wonder
21/11/2006 19:01:00 ‹KevinH› will investigate
21/11/2006 19:01:50 ‹Edward› sourceforge.net/projects/slimpanelz - absolutely no documentation :-/
21/11/2006 19:02:25 ‹KevinH› ooohhhhhh
21/11/2006 19:02:56 ‹KevinH› I see your name there too ;-)